As the violence in Manipur between Kuki and Meitei communities continues for nearly a month, The Wire spoke to Naga elder statesman Niketu Iralu about the situation in the state and his perception of the clash as an independent, outside observer. In an interview with Karan Thapar, published on June 1, Iralu said that the failure of the Indian paramilitary forces to restore order in Nagaland seems “deliberate”.Iralu, who is the nephew of the legendary leader A.Z. Phizo, also said that the home minister’s delay in coming to Manipur was a cause of great suspicion and concern. He added that the targeting of some 200 churches, including Meitei churches, raises suspicions that the RSS and other Hindutva forces are deliberately giving a religious colour to the troubles in Manipur.In the interview, Iralu questioned the total silence from Prime Minister Narendra Modi about Manipur. “Why is the prime minister not saying a word? Is he the prime minister only of the BJP? Or of all of India?” Iralu asked. The following is a transcript of the interview, edited lightly for style and clarity.§Hello and welcome to a special interview for The Wire. With the Kuki-Meitei clashes in Manipur dominating the news, most people seem to have forgotten that Manipur also has a substantial 24% Naga population. How do they view what’s happening around them in their state and what impact will this have on their lives as well as their fears, anxieties and aspirations? Joining me from Kohima is one of the most highly respected elder statesmen of the Naga community and the son of a very illustrious Naga family, Niketu Iralu.Mr Iralu, let me start by asking how do you view the Kuki Meitei clashes in Manipur. The Kukis believe – and they said this to me in interviews – that this is in fact, ethnic cleansing by the Meitei. The Meitei on the other hand – and again they’ve said this to me in interviews – see this as the deliberate work of what they call Kuki narco-terrorists. As someone who’s independent and as someone who is viewing it from outside how do you view the situation in Manipur?Well, it’s a danger to all of us because those charges are very serious and I’m speaking from Kohima, so I’m ashamed to say I do not know all the facts, all the details. But those accusations reveal the depth of feeling with which they are accusing one another and I do not know what to say about the actual truth of those charges.The trouble began after a rally on May 3, organised by the All Tribal Students Union of Manipur in which both Kukis and Nagas participated. However, this led to Meitei-Kuki clashes but the Nagas don’t seem to have been affected. How do you explain that?I think all of us realise that there are ongoing negotiations for the settlement of the Naga question between NSCN (IM) [National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Isak-Muivah)] and the government of India. It has dragged on for about 27 years now. And both sides [Meiteis and Kukis], all involved, realised that getting that disturbed could lead to Nagas coming in all kinds of ways, asserting their position. And I think that is, to my mind, reading from here is a very big reason for Nagas being kept like that and they themselves not too keen to get in.If I understand correctly, you are suggesting that because the Meiteis did not want to disrupt the government’s negotiations with the NSCN, which will be going on for 27 years, they have deliberately chosen not to target Nagas.Well, I think… one doesn’t know. Governments have all kinds of ways of doing things. Given the situation there and the equation of the two sides, whether the government has that kind of calculation and being more to the side of the Nagas, I do not know.How do you view the Arambai Tenggol and the Meitei Leepun? The Meitei say these are cultural organisations fostering and encouraging Meitei culture, Manipuri culture. The Kuki say that these are chauvinist organisations that are targeting tribals. How do you view these two organizations?I think what they have done to Manipur, both sides, show that they are very strongly organised groups. And the destruction has been on an extraordinarily large scale. And so, these charges against one another, I think the Government of India should somehow create a condition where the truth can be established, the facts can be established. So that there will be more fresh air coming in. Otherwise, there is no end to how one side can accuse the other and how it can get worse.Now today, Mr Iralu we have reached a point where I’m told there are no Kukis in the valley and probably no Meitei in the hill country. In other words, in effect, we’ve achieved demographic separation. On top of that, 10 Kuki MLAs – 7 from the ruling BJP, two from the Kuki People’s Alliance – have demanded a separate administration and they’ve made it very clear: they’re not talking about autonomous territorial councils but they want either a union territory or a separate state. How do you view this demand for a separate administration?I think it shows what the Kukis see as their ultimate goal. I think that’s obvious and one can understand. And the question is, what we ask is, this government has been going on for all these years… and all of them are with BJP – and most governments are now allied with BJP as things happen like that in the Northeast. Why suddenly it has become so destructive? The destruction indicates that there is a lot of planning on both sides. And then it’s gone out of control. Or has it gone out of control? The question that the situation leads us to is, why is it that the government of India – which is sending paramilitary forces and security forces of all kinds – is not able to stop the flames, the fighting and the violence?Are you suggesting that this is deliberate? That in fact, the paramilitary forces are deliberately failing to bring down the violence, is that what you are suggesting?I think so. Because there are too many examples already, it has even come in the media. How can it be that for 27 days in a small state in the eastern end of India, so many men of the armed forces have been brought in [and still the violence has not stopped]? Just now, the leadership has arrived. Amit Shah, the Union home minister.During the election that took place for the assembly [in 2022], I’m sure you’re aware how many VIPs and VVIPs from Prime Minister down, came and just stomped all over Manipur for the election. Now, what about the present collapse of law and order? It’s a much more serious problem where people are suffering and that’s where only the military is sent in. As far as I heard, I may be wrong, but I heard that they [the military] were involved in the evacuation.You’re saying a very important thing and I am getting you to clarify it because I think the audience would want to understand it perfectly. You’re saying, the failure of the paramilitary to stop the violence you think is deliberate. And secondly, you’re also saying that the decision by the leadership, the home minister in particular, not to come to Manipur until two days ago [May 29] but spend his time in Karnataka instead is also deliberate?This feeling has grown, gained ground a lot in Northeast India. We are watching because it will eventually affect all of us. And therefore, you say, how come the mighty government of India – with one of the biggest military forces in the world as far as we know – is not able to stop this?Are you suggesting that the government of India is tacitly behind the Meitei and is perhaps tacitly encouraging them?May it be wrong, but we suspect.You suspect that?I suspect. I’m just an ordinary citizen, but I’m reading the newspapers and I may be wrong. I do not know the ground realities but the ground realities – all these pictures and the stories coming out in the print media, television, social media – they are all the same.But then you are saying Mr Iralu that the government of India is not playing a fair hand, they are taking sides against the Kukis, they are encouraging the Meitei, that is a fairly serious concern and charge you are expressing.See, for 25, 26, 27 days, how can it be that India – one of the superpowers – allows such a thing to go on? Because people are suffering terribly. Their houses all burnt. And then also, of course, houses of worship, different religions, especially as far as I can see, I’m a Christian, but I think the fact is over 200 Christian churches have been burned. Not just tribal Christian churches, but Meitei Christian churches. Is it more than ethnic violence?Can I ask at this point? Is there a deliberate religious colour being put here? The fact that 200 churches have been burnt, including Meitei churches. Are RSS or Hindutva elements also involved with the tacit backing and support of the government in Delhi? Is that your fear?I do not know the connection inside, but certainly, the outcome makes me suspect that. I feel it very strongly and I know many people. In the Northeast region, we are tiny states, fragile communities. And we are trying to speak up for our aspirations, no matter how small we are. Because our history, we are just forming. It’s very important for us. And then something like this happens. We find that Delhi is not acting as we expect Delhi to do.Then let me ask you this, if Delhi is taking sides, if the home minister is deliberately prevaricating and delaying coming to Manipur, if the paramilitary are deliberately failing to control the situation, if Hindutva and RSS elements are attacking churches, then do you think the Kuki demand for a separate state or a union territory is justified?Well, I can understand what the Kukis must feel after what they have suffered. And I am careful to say this, but I’m saying that the perception has gained ground; that there is more than meets the eye.That means a Kuki separate administration is justified?Well, I can understand the demand. How that will work out? Those in Manipur will have to work it out, those who are involved in the talks going on. But you know, Mr Thapar, we are touching on issues that will need a lot of time, the temperature must be brought down.Absolutely. I don’t deny that. But, as an objective observer, do you think this would be the best solution? Because there is now complete distrust between the Kuki and the Meitei. Secondly, I’m told that there are no Kukis left in the valley; no Meiteis left in the hill country. So, we have effective demographic separation. Now on top of that, when all 10 Kuki MLAs, every single Kuki MLA, demands a separate administration. Do you think as an independent objective observer, that is perhaps the best solution? It may not be a happy solution, but is it the best solution?I don’t know how that will work out, given the reasons for the conflicts; given the reasons for the differences that are very strong – from what I know, from a distance. But I have friends in all these communities and we are all feeling so many things. We are neighbours. Because of difficult experiences among ourselves, all of us, how the solution that would be good, would be possible, we don’t know. We must respect the feelings and the demands for those objectives. Respect them and then see how we can… It’s a long business ahead of us.Let me ask you this. Do Manipuri Nagas want a separate administration?Manipuri Nagas?Do they want a separate administration?That would be very clear for a long time. They have been wanting the Naga Republic.So, Manipuri Nagas, Tangkhul Nagas, want to join up with Nagaland as part of a greater Nagaland. That is their true wish.That is the wish of the Nagas for integration. And again, one can understand why. But all these boundaries, you know, we are just emerging from our isolated past. And as the centuries come, we find that many things have happened – details of which were not aware. And so, the desire for integration is a very deeply felt thing.I’ll come to the Nagas in a moment’s time. Let’s first finish talking about Manipur and then I’ll come to the Nagas. I don’t want to confuse the two by intermingling them. How do you view the role played by Manipur chief minister N. Biren Singh? BJP Kuki MLAs like Paolienlal Haokip and even Wilson Lalam Hangshing, the general secretary of the Kuki People’s Alliance, a BJP ally, both have told me they blame Biren Singh for the problem. They say they’ve lost trust and confidence in him. They refuse to talk to him. How do you view Biren Singh’s handling of the situation?That’s a very difficult question to answer. But what has happened under his leadership is not good at all. I think that’s a very obvious fact I’m just mentioning. I can understand perhaps the compulsions that have made him take such a stand. Obviously, there are strong stirred up feelings supporting whatever policy he is pursuing. I can’t say more than that.Let me put this to you. The Kukis believe – and they have said this openly in interviews to me – that Biren Singh, for the last four or five years, has been accusing Kukis of sheltering illegal immigrants from across the border in Myanmar. He’s accused them of steadily encroaching on forest land. He’s accused them of being involved in poppy cultivation and illegal drug trading. How do you view these accusations? Is there any merit to them or are they an attempt by Biren Singh to give the Kukis a bad name?I think that kind of thing, as I said, selective mentioning of things that are happening and then making it the main issue to [fire] the cannon, the bullet. That is understandable. But I think there are many other factors involved in such a clash. I don’t quite know how to answer this question. But as I said, all of us are selectively collecting points. You know, we find out where others are wrong on some points.Mr Iralu, can I put this to you? Mr Haokip and he’s a BJP Kuki MLA.That’s right.I’m emphasizing that: he’s from the BJP. He said to me in an interview that Mr Biren Singh is anti-Kuki. He’s prejudiced against tribals. He said he’s a Meitei chauvinist. Do you agree with that description?Well, I do not know. I cannot go that far. That only Biren and his creator know.Manipur chief minister N. Biren Singh. Photo: PTILet’s look at this from the Meitei point of view. After all, when there is a clash, there are always two points of view. The Meitei believe that the land balance in Manipur works against them. They point out that they are 53% of the population, but they are restricted to the valley, which is just 10% of the state. The tribals on the other hand who are mainly Kuki and Naga are 40% of the population but they have access to 90% of the state which is the hill territory. The Meitei as you know are not permitted to buy land in the hill territory unless district councils give them specific permission which I’m told, very rarely happens. On the other hand, the tribals can buy land in the valley whenever they want. As a Naga, how do you view this land balance? Is it loaded against the Meitei? Do they have a good cause to feel this is unfair?Again, you see. From my visits to Manipur, what stays with me is that the land of the tribes – the different tribes – most of them are rugged mountains. You can’t have anything growing there, not cultivable. And so how much is actually available for people to grow their food and earn their livelihood? I do not know. But those things are, we are making generalised statements and saying this and that. I think all these things need to be examined very carefully. The fact is, 40 members of the 60-member assembly, I think are Meitei. So, at any stage, any situation, any crisis, the advantage is much stronger because everything is decided by votes for legislative measures. So, you see, I don’t know whether the Meiteis – who are used to being in the valley and also in Assam – they are used to being on the river banks. How many of them will go to the hills, except as teachers and they are the best teachers? When they actually have more [opportunities] by becoming recognised as a Scheduled Tribe [ST], will they go? We don’t know. I think that is also this point.You raise this question about ST status. The Meitei believe that is the best solution to the land imbalance. They want ST status so that they can buy land anywhere in Manipur just as tribals can buy land anywhere in Manipur. How do you view the Meitei demand for scheduled tribe status?I really hope my Meitei friends, all the Meiteis, don’t misunderstand me. But for all these years, they have all the advantages. In all the institutions of government – as far as I know, and this is always talked about – they have the upper hand virtually, completely, almost completely. Now, if they in addition to all these here, now they decide to go lower down, to those people they looked down upon before, just to have more facilities and privileges, will that solve problems for them? Or will it just make others more helpless, the minority groups? I want my Meitei friends not to misunderstand me if possible. But that’s my honest feeling. Why should somebody from a higher level of social standing, which they have been very proud of for so many years, now come down after all the years they have developed themselves – and thank God, they have developed a lot of things in many ways – now come down? Is that a motivation, a thinking good enough for the Meitei?Are you saying Mr Iralu, you are against ST status for the Meitei? That’s what it amounts to. Is that what you’re saying?I’m against it.Okay.Because I don’t feel it’s right for the Meiteis.It’s not right for the Meiteis to demand ST status?Because they can handle it without being that.Let me put to you a different solution suggested to me in an interview on May 9 by Paolienlal Haokip – and as I said earlier, he’s a BJP Kuki MLA.Yes.He said that the tribals by legislation should be barred from buying land in the valley. Would that be a way of solving or catering to the Meitei land imbalance hunger?Well, I think that is, you know, an interesting personal view of the honourable MLA. But I’m told there are constitutional criteria for deciding these issues: changing of caste categories or scheduling of social categories. I’m told that, I’m not a lawyer. But therefore, will that be possible? What our honourable Kuki MLA said? And I think this is something that has to be left to the constitutional lawyers, the Constitution to decide.Absolutely. The lawyers will decide how it is to be done but do you think there is a good idea in that suggestion?Well, I understand the feeling, but I don’t know what is good or not. I can’t say that.Okay. Let’s at this point widen our discussion Mr Iralu. At the core of the problem between the Kuki and the Meitei is the absence of trust. The truth is the Kuki and the Meitei simply do not trust each other. Now you have spent decades trying to bring Naga factions together. You understand what steps are needed to build up trust where there is none. What is your advice in terms of bridging the divide between the Kuki and the Meitei?Well, who am I to give any advice? But in Nagaland, some of us have been really, in all humility, committed to bringing healing and reconciliation to our fragmented society. And we can only share with anybody, what we have tried to do and we are committed to do, because we are not going to give it up.Could you explain to the audience the three, four top steps you took in the Naga situation and how they could be applied to the Kukis and the Meitei?I believe that we should start with different tribes. A process of some individuals, there are not always many, who see the total picture and who will admit that we are wrong, not others. We are not wrong in everything, but in this and this, we are wrong, not others, and therefore we are sorry and we will put it right. And do actual restitution, which is always possible. That kind of thing immediately starts to produce trust. And that is what the road map is, we have worked it out and it’s a road map that we believe in but we are not used to walking it. So, it’s very difficult.Your first step is very clear. You said it is important for individuals and tribes to accept the errors and mistakes they’ve made, be open about them and seek to rectify them. That as you said, is the first step towards building trust. Tell me what is the second and third step that you advise?As I said, go to those people you have hurt or done wrong to and actually start the process of talking. And say for this, for this we are wrong, not you, we are sorry. And instead of just blaming them for what they have done. You see, in my village of Khonoma, we found that at the end of the worst part of the Naga struggle, the most violent years, we found that our village had lost all its spirit. And the elders who always guided the village – and guided it very well in the past centuries – we found that they had no more authority. The young people did not listen to them. A number of us, 21 of us, representing three clans were asked to look into it and do whatever is necessary to restore the health of our village relationships. We identified that the 22 killings that had taken place in our village, where our village had killed one another, clans had killed one another. And we found that unless we touch that, we were going to go down further. Because our forest was being damaged by young people who did not care at all to preserve our virgin forest, very beautiful forest. And long story, but we resulted in getting all the killings processed. In the sense that out commission go those who have done the killing or their family members who are no longer alive, they went to the other side, those who have suffered because of them, asked for their apology, to forgive them. Before that, our commission members prepared both sides. Both sides, those who have done the wrong things, said we are afraid to do it but we are honest, we do it, we are destroying ourselves. And those who have suffered, if they will come, we will for the sake of our children, our future generation – who are becoming hopeless – [we will reconcile]. You see, in this case, each one, they said, “We were the ones who killed your people. Very specific. And we do not know what to say but our village is being destroyed because of killings like this. We ask you to forgive us and ask heaven to bless us. If you ask heaven to bless us, then it is complete.”And you are saying the Kuki and the Meitei must do something similar with each other?I believe unless we… what we are trying to do in Nagaland, unless we do that, we do not heal the hurt. If I may, I would like to quote Richard Rohr, the Franciscan monk who is saying a lot of things these days. He said, hurt not transformed is always transferred. We find that is a very terrible truth – a wonderful truth or terrible truth.That is why healing hurt is the first credible, important step.That’s it. Then trust returns. If trust comes, anything can be done. Northeast will become very energetic, vibrant. Otherwise, we are going down.Let me come to the Northeast at this point. Because it’s not just the Kuki and the Meitei but all north-eastern states have a unique identity which they wish to preserve and protect it now. This is precisely what article 371 is created to do.Yeah.But after the Modi government diluted article 370, and despite the fact the Modi government has repeatedly said it won’t do anything similar with 371, are there fears and question marks in the minds of the people of the Northeast? Is a trust deficit emerging between the Northeast and New Delhi as a result?Definitely. I’m sorry to say, what happened in Kashmir, we said, well that is not worthy of India. That is a strong element of vengeance. That’s too disgraceful, too small, too tragic for India. For a mighty nation with such an ancient history, or a great value guiding this ancient civilisation, to do such a thing to the state of Jammu and Kashmir. I mean we all said, you know, all of us want the highest to win – although we are never doing anything to make that real. So that’s an instance. Now, if they are going to do this kind of thing to solve problems, will they do something like this to solve what they think is the problem here?That is your fear. That is your fear, that they can abrodage 371?That’s our fear and that’s our despair. Because we are so small.In which case, let me ask you this. How do you see the Naga peace talks – which have been continuing for 27 years but have been clearly stalled for the last few years? You already said that the Meitei have deliberately not targeted the Nagas in Manipur because they do not want to damage that peace process. But the peace process is stalled. Since 2015, it doesn’t seem to have advanced. How do you see that peace process? Where is it?Well, we are hoping that after all that we have heard, although we don’t see how… but we are hoping that this can’t go on longer. That the settlement will come which will be honourable because it is both sides see that to be the maximum they can achieve. Whatever settlement comes, we have to get down and heal the wounds of our society. The hurt that has damaged us; the promises that have accumulated.Mr Iralu, healing the hurts and wounds will happen only after there’s a settlement. At the moment, the settlement is stalled – both because of the demands being made by Mr Thuingaleng Muivah [general secretary of the NSCN] and the NSCN on the one hand – and the government’s refusal to concede them on the other. Mr Muivah is insisting on a separate constitution and flag and on what he calls ‘Greater Nagaland’. The Modi government has categorically said it cannot accept any of the three. In this situation, in these circumstances, what is your advice to both sidesMy advice to our side is, let us bring, let us achieve trust within Naga society, Naga tribes, Naga factions. By implementing this, working on this roadmap that I said. Be honest where we are trying, our faction is wrong. And let others inspire them to do their part. I don’t see it as so difficult. We are not used to this kind of thinking. But without that, I’m afraid what’s a settlement? A settlement may come because the government is also too tired… I saw this, too tired.But what about the demand for a separate constitution and a flag? Kashmir, before the dilution of Article 370, did have its own constitution, it did have its own state flag. Both of them, now have ceased to exist. Yet Mr Muivah is insisting on a constitution and a separate flag for Nagaland. He knows that the government took it away from Kashmir but he still wants it for Nagaland. Where do you personally, Mr Iralu, stand on the issue of a separate constitution and a separate flag for Nagaland?You know, I feel… this constitution, flag, sovereignty – Nagas should realise that India cannot handle it. India is a very, very ancient civilisation, but its democracy is as chaotic. Democracy cannot handle, and parliament cannot handle the question of Naga claim for sovereignty. Although, I am quite clear that the facts, the historical facts [based on which] we claim [sovereignty] are unquestionable. We did not fight India, we did not fight Burma, we fought the British. And before the British left, we made clear that we retain the right to decide our future. Now, I think now you are talking about sovereignty at the moment because India cannot discuss it and we must understand that and therefore say it is India’s problem not our problem, keep it on the shelf and get down to run the state that we have properly to develop our people properly and…Can I interrupt? Let me interrupt because you said very important things and I want to clarify them. One, you said India cannot handle, India’s Parliament cannot handle the Naga demand for sovereignty. And secondly, you said keep it on the shelf and let’s get on with other things. Are you saying directly to Mr Muivah, don’t insist on a separate constitution and flag? It sounds as if that’s what you’re suggesting. I’m asking you to clarify.Well, I fully understand why Muivah is taking that stand. But I’m saying that India, I don’t see how India can handle it. Because it immediately goes to the question of sovereignty. And so, say that the whole thing we have done all we can to show what we mean. We are not guilty. It is on the basis of our history that we have defended this and therefore leave it there. I really wish that the NSCN (I-M) will think in those terms. Because, the reality is, after so many years [of militancy and insurgency], we can’t defeat the Indian Army. We don’t need to be ashamed of that. And unless we can defeat the Indian Army, we can’t have anything that we are stating is our position. India cannot…Once again you are saying it very well and cleverly but I want you to clarify. You said, “Leave it there. We can’t defeat the Indian army. Leave it there.” You are saying leave the demand for a separate constitution and flag aside. Get on with the rest of the relationship. That’s what you are saying, is it? We need to be clear.That’s what I’m saying.That’s what you are saying.Yeah. I believe you know, India cannot handle it. Any prime minister of India, when India became independent had to defend the map that the British gave them. And if Muivah was the prime minister of the [newly independent] India, instead of Nehru, he would have defended the map that the British gave. Therefore, we should keep that understanding, and yet say to India, “Look we are not against you, we are not anti you. We are not anti-India but we are saying that we were not part of that map that the British gave you, according to us.” But, we are so small, so, so, so, small that nobody knew what we were saying. But for us, it is our understanding of our history. We feel it is sacred for us and we should be worthy of it by beginning to run the government. I believe you know the state of Nagaland, I am speaking from Nagaland here, the state of Nagaland is the first illegitimate child of the Naga crisis, the Naga struggle. So, it came out of the Naga crisis, the Naga struggle. I believe that the Naga National Council should reclaim the state and say it’s our illegitimate child and let us use it to develop, because India will not leave this child. India cannot leave.I don’t want to get lost in detail, because the country won’t understand the detail of the Naga history. But the main point you’ve made is one, I want to repeat. You’re saying to Mr Muivah and the NSCN, but you’re also saying to the Indian government: Put aside the demand for a separate constitution and flag – as you said, put it on the shelf. Another time, you said leave it there, and get on with the rest of the relationship because you cannot defeat the Indian army. Get on with the relationship, develop the state and put aside the demand for a separate constitution and a flag. That’s what you’re saying, isn’t it?Yeah. Put it aside for the future Nagas. When the Indian Parliament and democracy are mature enough, strong enough to handle any question. At that time, let the future Nagas decide what they will do, what they will settle with India.That is very clear.Well, that will be 200 years, 300 years, I don’t know.That is very clear sir. Put it aside for future generations, when the Indian Parliament is more mature to handle this and when the Nagas are in a better position. Put it aside for now. This is not today’s issue. Put it aside.One last question. The Nagas are 24% of Manipur. At the moment, they are part of Manipur. However, Mr Muivah and the NSCN are demanding that the Manipuri Nagas should be incorporated into greater Nagaland. They are called Tangkhul Nagas and Mr Muivah is a Tangkhul Naga himself. This is, therefore, I presume, a personal emotional issue for him. How do you see the future of Nagas in Manipur? Do they wish to be part of greater Nagaland? Because that would also involve Naga areas from Arunachal Pradesh and other states getting incorporated and that could create federal problems for India? Or do you think let things be as they are, leave it once again for a future wiser generation? Don’t make it an issue today.Yeah, I think at the moment these boundary lines really cannot be touched because they are electoral problems. You know, during the election time, a party that says, “Okay we will give that to them because we realise they have a good claim,” that party will just disappear in no time. So, it is going to take time. As [former] Nagaland governor R.N. Ravi said on one occasion, all these questions are political processes. And many of these things take many years to resolve themselves. What I’m suggesting is that unless we get to developing ourselves properly, we are going to destroy ourselves.Th Muivah. Photo: The WireSo once again you’re saying – just as you said over the issue of separate constitution, separate flag – you’re also saying over this question of greater Nagaland, “Leave it. Do not bring it up now. Leave it for future wiser generations to sort out 20-30 years or whenever. Don’t make it an issue now.”That’s what I believe. Because you see, last time, the area of the ceasefire agreement came into the negotiation talks. 18 Meiteis were killed, they gave their lives. Well, we are sorry that the sons killed themselves like that. But it shows that it is going to be very very costly. And with that kind of a solution coming, are we going to be able to do anything? Any one of us?Your priority, it seems, is the development of Nagaland, the healing of hurt within Nagaland, the progress of the people of Nagaland. Issues like separate constitution, separate flag of Greater Nagaland should be left for the future, for wiser parliaments in Delhi to handle, for wiser generations in Nagaland to pursue. Don’t make them critical issues today. That is your position.My position is not just Nagaland. We have to create a wider, common stability for the whole Northeast. From Bodoland, right up to the Manipur border, to Arunachal. Unless we achieve a common stability, there is not going to be any development. We are so used to calling bonds for one another, we have realised that this is not sustainable solutions. Therefore, this thing, a wider common stability, will have to be achieved by all of us [who are] paying the price for [the lack of it], realise that we, as neighbours, have to bring in goodwill for one another. That will be the actual growth of the whole Northeast. We are going in the opposite direction and we cannot play with this kind of, just ourselves and to hell with the others. We cannot continue with this any longer.Mr Iralu, you have said some very important things, both about the Kuki-Meitei clash within Manipur, but also about the Naga talks with the government. Both are separate issues, but on both, you have spoken your mind, you have spoken honestly, and I think many will welcome what you said but I’m sure there will be several who will be critical as well. I thank you.Definitely. I wish we could discuss this with people like you because that’s a very big issue. And I have many more ideas. But you know, I would like to add … when we have such violence taking place in Manipur, how come the prime minister keeps quiet? How come the home minister keeps quiet? They don’t say a word. When the worshipping places are desecrated or priests are killed or lynched elsewhere. We cannot understand why the prime minister of India is not saying a word. He is such a great figure in the world. Is Modi the prime minister of only the BJP or is he the prime minister of the whole of India? Likewise, home minister Amit Shah. Is he the home minister only for BJP or BJP-ruled states? Or is he the home minister of the whole of India? This kind of leadership – the BJP leadership and whoever go along with them – project their, you know, building of this thinking that is pushing them, why they keep silent. I think they should realise that this is very dangerous for India. And you see, earlier I was trying to say, a big sinkhole has formed in Northeast India. All are being sucked into it. And all the chief ministers of the Northeast are realising that their politics are being paralysed because of that thing.I’m going to end the interview there but I’ll repeat for the audience that critical question you raised just a moment ago. Why is the prime minister of India not saying a word about what’s happening in Manipur? And you ask, is he the PM only of the BJP or is he the PM of the whole of India? Why is he silent? And this connects directly with what you said in the first half of this interview, when you felt that the failure of the paramilitary to bring control in Manipur looks deliberate. The delay of the home minister coming to Manipur and choosing instead to campaign in Karnataka looks deliberate and you also suspect that the targeting of churches – 200 and all, including Meitei churches – looks deliberate, as if the RSS and the Hindutva are playing a religious card. You’ve raised questions that concern the country deeply and I thank you for doing so. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Iralu. Take care, stay safe.Thank you. May our suspicions be wrong.I endorse that sir, but the important thing is you voiced your suspicions so that everyone knows that those suspicions exist. And suspicions can only be proven wrong if people address them and go out to prove they are wrong. If they are not addressed, those suspicions become fractured. Take care, sir.Thank you.Transcribed by Romita Handa.
