Karan Thapar interviews professor Suhas Palshikar, who is chief editor of the journal Studies in Indian Politics and co-director of Lok Niti’s programme for comparative democracy, on the latest developments in Maharashtra politics. What Ajit Pawar’s switch to the BJP indicates for the opposition unity? How will the developments impact Sharad Pawar’s career? Does he have to build from scratch? Are these developments going to help the BJP in the 2024 Lok Sabha elections?Read the full text of what professor Palshikar had to say below.§Karan Thapar: Hello and Welcome to a special interview for The Wire. With Maharashtra dominating the news, we ask if this is Sharad Pawar’s political nemesis, or like a phoenix, can he rise from the ashes and take flight again?Joining me to address that question, and also the entire gamut of issues that have come to the forefront in Maharashtra, is someone who is considered India’s top political analyst, and certainly his knowledge and understanding of Maharashtra politics is unsurpassed.He is the chief editor of the journal Studies in Indian Politics and co-director of Lok Niti’s programme for comparative democracy, professor Suhas Palshikar.Professor, let me start with something that most people would have been a little confused by. On the one hand, everyone says that they were taken by surprise by Ajit Pawar’s defection on Sunday. But on the other hand, everyone also seems to say that they suspected that this was going to happen. And the two seem very contradictory. So let me ask you, how do you view what has happened?SP: In a sense, it was expected. But you know, the kind of enigma that surrounds Mr. Sharad Pawar in Maharashtra, everyone thought that he could avoid a crisis in the party and maybe push Ajit Pawar to the corner. And that’s why it was expected as well as unexpected.KT: In other words, this is a let down in terms of the capacities we thought Sharad Pawar had. He has not lived up to what we thought he could do.SP: Or maybe Ajit Pawar transcended his own limitations that have been haunting him for the past two decades or so, and [he] finally crossed over. The problem with Ajit Pawar has always been whether to defy his uncle openly or not. He has done that finally, it seems.KT: Quite right. This means that the equation between the uncle and the nephew has altered. The uncle is no longer as supreme as he thought he was. The nephew is not as subservient as we thought he would be.SP: Yeah. That’s how the balance currently seems to have tilted slightly in favour of Pawar, with his action last Sunday.KT: Let me get something else out of the way quickly. Are we pretty certain that these NCP [Nationalist Congress Party] defectors have crossed the floor to protect themselves against the multiple cases they face? They want, in other words, to be cleansed by the BJP’s washing machine. They’re not actually joining Mr. Modi to build the country and they certainly do not have an ideological affinity with the BJP either. Is it in their interest to remove the CBI [Central Bureau of Investigation] or ED [Enforcement Directorate] cases?SP: Yeah, [there are] three things, in fact. I would say, yes, of course, many of them have been accused of various misappropriations earlier and the BJP has probably used that probably to blackmail them, or they have used it to blackmail the BJP and enter the ministry. But I don’t think that’s the only point. The larger point is that the NCP is a party and many of these so-called stalwarts, who have now defected, have always lived only on formal governmental power.It’s very difficult for them now, after 15 years and more, to be in power, to be out of power. And that’s something that must have weighed upon their minds. That prepared them for a tripartite arrangement with the Maha Vikas Aghadi (MVA) in 2019. When that broke, I think they were finding out escape routes to, in any case, gain formal power. So, that I think is also the driving feature as to why these people have moved.And third thing, you said that they don’t have an ideological affinity. Yes, but I would add one more footnote to that. They don’t have any ideological aversion either to what Modi and the BJP have been doing. They are so obsessed with formal power that they don’t bother about the ideological question at all.KT: So, you believe the driving force was, as you put it, an obsession with power. They are used to being in office. They are not used to being in the opposition. And therefore, they became restless with the MVA government collapse and they were looking for a way back into power.SP: That’s what I would say rather than [talking about] the simple narrative that because of the ED cases, they finally went there. [For instance,] Chhagan Bhujbal, who had been to jail also. Why would he now compromise after being in jail for a long time? So I think it’s not just that but something more than that.KT: Let’s look at what this means, first of all, for Sharad Pawar. When I look at what it means for other people and other parties, on top of his nephew, not only have his closest colleagues like Praful Patel, Chhagan Bhujbal, Dilip Walse-Patil deserted him, but by some accounts, these are unverified as yet, perhaps a total of 40 out of 53 MLAs have parted company. How serious a blow is this and can a man at 82 recover?SP: It’s absolutely serious and I would say that though Pawar senior has encountered many crises in his political career, this, perhaps, is the toughest one, because on the one hand, it involves his family, [and on the other,] it involves a number of close lieutenants whose political careers he himself facilitated, and that’s why he’ll have to practically build from the scratch.So for him, it is a new political innings altogether, and that’s a tall task without any stalwarts by his side now.KT: It also suggests that perhaps he isn’t as clear of judgment as he should be. After all, Praful Patel, three weeks ago, was appointed working president. Clearly, at that time, Patel was already planning to part company, and yet [Sharad] Pawar appointed him working president. Doesn’t that show that sometimes Pawar’s judgment of people is not as sharp and acute as it should be?SP: Or let’s say that sometimes it so happens that he overestimates his powers, as I said in the beginning also. By making Patel the office bearer in the party organisation, he thought that he could persuade him to remain with the party for a little longer than Patel had chosen to do. That’s why I think [of Pawar’s] misjudgment, but this is not the first time.Although we are not discussing Pawar’s career as such. In 1991, when he first staked his prime ministership claim, there was a misjudgment. In 1999, when he chose to leave the Congress party, there was another misjudgment, because he thought that this time a small party can bring many parties together to form a government.Unfortunately, in 1999, what happened for him was that bipolarity emerged in politics. So yes, the contingencies of politics are such that you cannot imagine anyone as a superhuman or a Chanakya, as it is usually called these days.KT: Now there is a conspiracy theory that was doing the rounds on Sunday night [July 2] and perhaps even Monday morning [July 3], I think.There are some who believe that Pawar not only approved of his nephew’s defection but perhaps, in some sense, coordinated it. There are two reasons for saying this: firstly, his own recent admission that he was involved in what happened in 2019 to test Devendra Fadnavis, and second, because people have this impression that Sharad Pawar is extremely crafty, clever, and strategic, he’s capable of multiple actions at the same time.But now that Pawar has sacked Praful Patel and Sunil Tatkare, would you accept that this conspiracy has lost its basis?SP: Yes, I think that in the case of Sharad Pawar, there are always conspiracy theories. And particularly, if you are in Maharashtra, you will find that both his supporters and adversaries in the media would fly these conspiracy theories. The supporters think that he is extraordinary in strategy. The opponents think that he is so crafty that everything that happens in Maharashtra happens because of him.I think both are exaggerations, and let us do away with conspiracy theories. I know that in future, Pawar may adjust with this situation, which is different from having acquiesced into it right at the beginning. Right now it seems that he has gone on fighting the situation as it unfolds.KT: If he wasn’t, in any way, involved in what happened, would you then accept that he made a terrible mistake in promoting daughter Supriya Sule in opposition to his nephew Ajit Pawar. There are even reports that many of the MLAs who have defected were upset at the rise of the daughter, which they thought meant that they were losing their chances themselves. Was it a mistake to promote his daughter in the way he did?SP: Surely, because Supriya Sule doesn’t have much base in Maharashtra politics as such. A party which is now officially restricted to Maharashtra, but otherwise practically restricted to Maharashtra, [and] not having a base in Maharashtra politics would mean that you are a parachuter. That’s a mistake he made, but I think there is a side story to it, which is that Ajit Pawar has never been interested in national level politics. He once became an MP but he was not very effective there either.Ajit Pawar. Photo: Twitter/@AjitPawarSpeaksAnd [Sharad] Pawar’s politics of the last three decades has been so deeply rooted in national politics that he now cannot leave his foothold from there. So that’s the dilemma he faced. And, that’s why he finally chose Supriya over Ajit.Of course, in his political career, the charge of supporting first his nephew and then his daughter will always remain a blot on his pluralist political career as such.Also read: In Maharashtra, It’ll Be Open Season Until the 2024 Lok Sabha ElectionKT: You have put your finger on a very serious challenge [Sharad] Pawar faces. If he is going to recover, it looks very difficult to see how he can. But if he’s going to recover, it has to be by immersing himself in state-level politics and rediscovering the support and building the party literally from the grassroots. But if he has begun to see himself over the last three decades as a national-level politician, then he may not have either the flair or even the stamina to do it from the grassroots upwards in Maharashtra. That’s the challenge suddenly.SP: Either he loses Maharashtra or he loses his weight in Delhi politics. That’s the dilemma for him right now. And, I think he would choose to lose some weight in Delhi but make sure that his roots are stronger in Maharashtra because he knows very well that unless the NCP or whatever name then he would give to his new party, if the original party goes with Ajit Pawar, that party must have a regional- or state-level leverage. Otherwise, there is no political future in current times.KT: Perhaps, this explains why he was on the road to Satara, as early as 8 o’clock yesterday [July 3] morning, literally hours after the defection.SP: Yes, but you would have seen that this was planned. When mediapersons asked him, on Sunday [July 2], about his strategies ahead, he said that tomorrow [July 3] I will go and pay my homage to Yashwantrao Chavan and start a new politics. So he actually had everything planned out, which also means that he had an inkling of what might happen.KT: Which leads you back to the conspiracy theory yet again…SP: But he was anticipating [this situation] and someone like him would anticipate such things, yes.KT: But [it is] interesting that he anticipated it but was unable to scotch it.SP: Yes. That means that there is going to be a major departure in state politics. Sharad Pawar’s role in state politics will now be slightly less awesome than it earlier used to appear.KT: Let’s start on how this will affect and impact the BJP [Bharatiya Janata Party]. Only a week ago, Mr. Modi in Bhopal alleged that the NCP was responsible for some 70,000 crore of corruption. Devendra Fadnavis had gone on record to say that Ajit Pawar would soon end up in jail. And yet today, Ajit Pawar is deputy chief minister and the NCP is the ally of the BJP.Could this damage the BJP’s reputation for integrity in fighting corruption. I mean, for instance, that slogan ‘Na khaunga, na khaane dunga’ not only sounds hypocritical, but I’ve heard people on social media changing it to ‘Khaunga aur khilaunga’.SP: I would ask this question not only to you but to our viewers as well. Do we still take what the BJP says seriously?It’s a party with a difference, but the difference is, the party is here to actually entrench a new political culture and ideology. For that, they are ready to do anything. And therefore, I think these questions about whether they were taking corruption charges seriously or not are actually beside the point.The washing machine analogy is good for social media criticisms of the BJP, but the BJP, more than that, is something, as we have already said in our early conversations also, a very dangerous political outfit for the democracy in the country.So it’s not that they are condoning corruption, but they are strengthening their sway everywhere in the country. Like the Shiv Sena, they have now broken the NCP, another state party. So any casual observer would realise that what they are doing is one by one ensuring that state parties get weakened, and therefore, the ground is cleared at the state level.KT: This also suggests, and correct me if I’m wrong, that the BJP wants to weaken, and if possible, throw regional state parties right out of the picture because those parties are the ones that put up the toughest fight against the BJP. If that happens, then the field is left open for the Congress, and the BJP is much more confident of demolishing the Congress with ease. So there is a strategy behind this [what the BJP is doing].SP: Absolutely. I think I’ve been saying this again and again that the long-term strategy of the BJP currently seems to be the exact reverse of what Pramod Mahajan and Atal Bihari Vajpayee had crafted in the 1990s, which is that they want to destroy or at least decimate state-level parties and strong leaders.Today, nobody listens or hears the name of Asom Gana Parishad, for example. The entire politics of Assam is now around the BJP. Then you have smaller players, like Eknath Shinde in Maharashtra, and many others in the state, since we are discussing Maharashtra, who will be thrown by the wayside a couple of years down the line. It is easier to do business with smaller parties rather than a stronger party. In Andhra Pradesh also, for example, they would probably go with TDP [Telugu Desam Party] because the TDP currently is like the NCP in Maharashtra, restless with being out of power. Jagan [Mohan Reddy] is in power so they might do business with Chandra Babu, and later on maybe do whatever they want with his party.Also read: By Appointing Purandeswari as Andhra Chief, Is BJP Trying to Grow at TDP’s Expense?KT – This reminds me of that Marxist phrase, “They look upon these regional parties who they ally with, only to demolish and obliterate them as useful idiots.”SP: The ideological extremes operate politically in a similar manner.KT: If you look at it a little further, this also is an acknowledgment by the BJP that if they hadn’t broken the NCP, then the combination of what was left of the Shiv Sena, the NCP and the Congress was likely to put up a very strong fight in Maharashtra. And they needed to weaken that to be able to clear the way for themselves. That’s a sort of subtle acknowledgment behind what they have done.SP: In the last one year, both these things were happening. The Eknath Shinde government was not performing very well, and on the other hand, there seemed to be somewhat greater support for the Maha Vikas Aghadi, whatever remained of it. And therefore, the BJP was prepared to make this bargain, so that in the Lok Sabha they can win as many seats as possible.Both Eknath Shinde and Ajit Pawar would be less interested in Lok Sabha seats, so there would be a bargain for assembly seats, rather than Lok Sabha seats. That would give a clear ground to the BJP to contest more seats for the Lok Sabha from the state.KT: And obviously, Mr. Modi needs that because he’s worried about his performance in South India. He could also be worried about his performance in other parts of North India. Therefore, if he can secure a larger number of 48 seats in Maharashtra, it will give him a better chance of continuing for a third term.SP: Surely, because whatever they say, at the moment, the figure 300 seems to be quite challenging for the BJP to reach yet again. Naturally therefore, they have to now find new areas where they can penetrate or consolidate the older territories. Maharashtra is one place where they can do it, [and] they are doing it.KT: Let’s come at this point to Eknath Shinde. Now there’s no doubt that he sounded triumphant on Sunday [July 2], and even on Monday [July 3], but in truth, won’t the incorporation of the NCP into his cabinet create problems for him? Firstly, he has fewer cabinet places to give to his own party men, many of whom were already preparing themselves, I’m told, to become new ministers, and second, Ajit Pawar is a strong administrator with a lot of experience in government and that could affect Shinde’s command and control over the cabinet as well.SP: Shinde has practically lost his chief ministership with Sunday’s [July 2] developments. Already with Devendra Fadnavis as the deputy chief minister, there was an atmosphere in the state where the deputy chief minister was making all the pronouncements rather than the chief minister. Now you have two strong deputy chief ministers. So what remains with Shinde is only the formal chair of the chief minister, nothing more.Deputy chief minister and BJP leader Devendra Fadnavis speaks as Maharashtra chief minister and Shiv Sena leader Eknath Shinde looks on during a press conference, in Mumbai. Photo: PTISo it’s a big blow to the breakaway group of the Shiv Sena. Plus, the frustrations that you pointed out, namely his supporters will ask him this question, “Why did we defect if we are not getting enough share of offices and power?”KT: So he’s been hollowed out in a sense.SP: Yes, and that would be useful in negotiating with him for seat-sharing adjustments.KT: Absolutely, but there’s another cloud that hangs over the horizon as far as Shinde is concerned. Now the BJP won’t face a problem if speaker [Rahul] Narwekar rules against Shinde and the 15 other MLAs in the defection case, because the BJP now has NCP’s support to replace him. I’m presuming that there are enough NCP MLAs but taking that presumption on board, could this be in effect a green signal for speaker Narwekar to rule against Shinde and the 15 other shifts in the MLAs? And the BJP could claim, “Look we are committed to propriety, we are committed to constitutionalism, we are doing precisely what the Supreme Court said.” It could actually be a moment when the BJP tries to say, ‘Don’t question our commitment, we are committed.’SP: I don’t really think so because if the speaker does that, it would also mean that the speaker will have to do the same with Ajit Pawar’s group, subsequently. That is very unlikely.Secondly, if that happens, whatever the formal position the BJP may take, the Shinde group would practically rebel against them, because they would say that it’s not the speaker, you are actually remote-controlling the speaker. Since when did the speaker become so impartial in India’s legislatures that the speaker would give such a ruling? So, I don’t think that is very likely to happen, but yes, they are insuring themselves against any eventuality.KT: Let’s come to Devendra Fadnavis. From chief minister, he has already been reduced to deputy chief minister. Now he has become one of the two deputy chief ministers, and I presume, he could also end up losing one of his key portfolios – home, finance, and planning – to Ajit Pawar. So behind the broad smile, he will also be a little concerned.SP: Oh yes, you said that Shinde was making a brave face of himself, but that is equally true of Fadnavis, because this is the second time that he has to play a second fiddle in state politics. The first time was when an inexperienced person like Shinde was made the chief minister instead of Fadnavis. And now this is the second time that he has now been made to share the deputy chief minister’s portfolio with Ajit Pawar, who obviously would be one of the major rivals of Fadnavis, for the chief minister’s post.There are, of course, news items and rumours that he would be pushed to the centre, so that there is no ego clash between him and Pawar. We don’t know what happens to that, but the type of politics that Fadnavis has been doing, he would be unhappy if he is pushed to the centre.KT: So although, the BJP has secured itself…by luring across the NCP, it’s made its own party leader somewhat unhappy, and certainly it also now knows that there will be several shifts in the MLAs who have been denied their chance of performance. And they will be unhappy. So there are some internal problems that the BJP has to handle at this moment of success.SP: Surely, the best way to describe the entire situation is that it is something like a typical whodunit and you never know what is exactly going to happen next. And, I really don’t think that this is the end of the story, both from the side of Sharad Pawar and Fadnavis.The BJP, while looking very successful and manipulative, may have put itself at the mercy of the breakaway faction of the NCP. Remember that all those who have broken away from the NCP currently – Ajit Pawar himself and many others – are very strong leaders in their own rights. They are not necessarily only district-level leaders. Their capacities of mobilising people transcend districts of Maharashtra. And therefore, the BJP will be equally in jeopardy, if the NCP handles its portfolios efficiently and overpowers the cabinet.KT: Let me put another sort of jeopardy the BJP could face. Suppose Ajit Pawar is unable to produce 36 MLAs supporting him, and that will entirely depend on how Sharad Pawar plays his hand. Two MLAs who were either present at the swearing-in or indicated they will support Ajit Pawar have returned. If that number of 36 is not achieved, the BJP would be very embarrassed, because suddenly, this whole thing could fall apart just not as dramatically but just as it happened in 2019. A second such setback would look terrible for the BJP.SP: It would look terrible but at the same time, the way the political atmosphere is being shaped in the country, there has now emerged a core voter of the BJP who is not worried about these questions of image, propriety, commitment and so on. [The party is not even worried about] consistency for that matter. The BJP hopes to retain their [the voters’] support, irrespective of whatever loss of face it may have to accept.Secondly, it would say that well, it is Ajit Pawar who has failed to deliver for the second time. In a sense, that would be practically an end to Ajit Pawar’s career more than the BJP’s career. If, as you say, he fails to produce 36 MLAs or 35, whatever number, then, it would be a very very tricky situation for him. He would be a desperate person to get hold of those 34-35 [MLAs].KT: So this could be a break for him.SP: Yeah, that’s why I said that this is something which one doesn’t know whether to read as a comedy, but looks more like a tragedy, because everyone seems to be a loser. Currently, I don’t see any direct gains purely for any single player in the state. Everyone is likely to lose or have already lost. That is the situation where the split in the NCP has brought [to the fore] Maharashtra’s politics.KT: Where does this leave the attempt by the opposition parties to form some sort of electoral unity against the BJP? With next year’s Lok Sabha elections, the next meeting [of the opposition parties] is due in Bengaluru in roughly two weeks’ time. There was even some speculation in the media that Sharad Pawar could replace Nitish Kumar as a convenor. I presume that Sharad Pawar’s hopes are dashed but what about the wider concept of opposition unity? How badly has that been damaged?SP: Objectively speaking, I would say for the opposition, these developments in Maharashtra emphasise the fact that they must do something and come together, and have some give and take. In reality, it might dampen the spirits of the NCP in Maharashtra. It might be a warning to many other parties elsewhere, who have been in the forefront of these opposition unity efforts. We don’t know whether the second conclave of the opposition parties would take place or not, because there have been speculations that it is going to be deferred.Everyone seems to be on their guard. I thought it was a mistake if they were going today for the meeting because developments in Maharashtra have underscored the urgency of opposition unity.KT: As of last night, they have announced that the meeting will happen on July 17 and 18, and not on July 13. But they pushed it back five days. Maybe that’s the start of a process of deferring it further, we don’t know, but as of now, it’s scheduled for July 17 and 18. What does this mean for the speaker? If the uncertainty of MLAs on either side means that we end up with less than 36 [MLAs], then this vote qualifies as a split. And the only way these MLAs would be safe is if speaker Narwekar can interpret creatively, who is the chief whip and the assembly leader. But is his capacity and ability to do that intact? I know he did that earlier, but after the recent Supreme Court judgment, has he lost a lot of his capacity to interpret creativity and help people?SP: I think he would still try and interpret it as liberally as possible to ensure that this government remains in power. As of now, legal wrangles would begin, both in the Supreme Court and before the Election Commission. That will give time to Narwekar, as the speaker, to keep postponing his decision.Remember that even after the Supreme Court ruling in the Shiv Sena case, he has still not taken any specific decision in that case. So the NCP case will come even later, and by that time, both politics would have changed and the context would have changed, because anyway, this assembly has now barely 16 months. Then it becomes an academic exercise, even if the court rules anything. And I repeat, as far as the loss of face is concerned, no politician today bothers for loss of face because these are only formal discussions, where loss of face will be discussed. The public discourse has already been detached from questions of constitutional morality.KT: Quite right. The only problem, and there may not be a major problem, is that the Supreme Court has asked him to take a decision, in what they call courts a “reasonable time”. And Sanjay Raut has gone on record to say that after 90 days of lapse, they will go back to the Supreme Court to ask for an order expediting [the process]. If that happens, then I imagine, Narwekar’s hands are tied.SP: Sure, that might happen. But again, as I said, for the NCP case, that reasonable time begins only this Sunday or even later after the complaints are made to him about defection. I don’t know whether, as far as today, the NCP has formally complained to the speaker of Maharashtra legislature about the defections. There have been letters of throwing them out, etc.KT: You may be right, sir. But I think, Jayant Patel, late last night, wrote to Narwekar wanting the nine [MLAs] who were sworn-in to be thrown out and to lose their membership. They haven’t said anything about others, because as yet, they don’t officially know who the others are. Yes, that is still in doubt and I think [Sharad] Pawar is hoping that some of the so-called others will quietly come back to him. But let me come to the other issue faced by the Election Commission. If the majority of the party workers and the majority of the membership stays loyal to Sharad Pawar, despite the fact that two-thirds of his MLAs have defected, can he present the case to the Election Commission to convince them that the party symbol and name should stay within? Or given the character of the Commission, and the way it tends to bend the knee to the government in Delhi, is that very unlikely?SP: Sharad Pawar will certainly do that because the Supreme Court’s latest ruling in the Shiv Sena case clearly says that while the numbers test is important, it need not be the only test. And it has laid down guidelines for that. The Election Commission is, in a sense, bound by those guidelines.The latter part of the answer is what you said. That this is again a theoretical discussion, not only a hypothetical [one] but theoretical. The way the Election Commission will perform will probably depend upon how the Commission perceives itself. Does it perceive itself as an autonomous protector of fair play? Or does it perceive itself as an instrument of the hegemon in New Delhi that will decide how the Commission acts? And like you, I am also afraid that the Commission will not bother about its autonomy much. That’s the fear I have.Also read: Despite Efforts, BJP Fails to Pull an ‘Ajit Pawar’ in BiharKT: One last question: in the lead up to the 2024 elections, do you see similar attempts to break political parties happening in other states? Bihar is one [state] where the press is already speculating that the JD(U) [Janata Dal (United)] could start to splinter. Could Rajasthan be another? Or is that a case where the Congress is already doing enough damage to themselves, the BJP doesn’t have to intervene?SP: Yeah, the way the BJP politics runs, Bihar would be the major target. This is because it’s a large state and Nitish [Kumar] and the RJD [Rashtriya Janata Dal] can sway the [2024] Lok Sabha elections. That’s another reason, but also because Nitish has taken the fight to the BJP by splitting with the NDA and forming an alliance with the RJD.So they would want to demonstrate that whoever comes into our path, their political careers would be put into difficulty or jeopardy. Rajasthan, as you said, is unnecessary for them to do much. The Congress will do the harm itself. There could be other parties as well. We don’t know, they have played this game with the Trinamool Congress earlier. Down south, they can play the same game in the case of Andhra Pradesh, perhaps with YSR Congress. So nobody is protected.KT: So we’ve entered the time when regional parties not only have to woo and win votes from the electorate, they also have to defend themselves against the strategies of the BJP in Delhi.SP: Yes, so far, the regional parties like BJD [Biju Janata Dal] in Odisha thought that they are protected from the BJP if they buy peace with them, but the condition for that is, for the Lok Sabha elections, they have to keep away from the idea of opposition unity. That’s the condition that the BJP has laid, in a sense. And therefore, all these developments need to be connected to the larger picture, just as they are related to the Maharashtra state-level politics also.KT: This also means that with the exception of one or two states, perhaps Uttarakhand, perhaps Uttar Pradesh, what Modi wants most is to secure a majority in the Lok Sabha. And he doesn’t mind if that happens at the cost of losing one or two state governments.SP: Yes. For them, the major target currently is Lok Sabha 2024. For Modi, 300 [seats] is important because the type of awe he creates around him and his party creates around him, even if they get 275 or 280 [seats], it would look like a defeat. Though, it will not be a defeat in reality. So for them, this is very important that they repeat the performance of 2019, if not improve upon it. And for that, they are ready to go to any length. That’s the message the BJP is giving with every single action.KT: Thank you very much for joining us and for sharing your insights about the situation in Maharashtra. Thank you very much, indeed.SP: My pleasure.
