“The government is embroiled in scams.”“Education is not the government’s priority. The Budget continues to shrink.”“What does ‘viksit’ mean in the context of ‘Viksit Bharat’?”“You have established a school, but there are no teachers. What are the students supposed to do?”“You claim that you are establishing colleges…but where are the jobs?”“Why didn’t paper leaks happen during Vajpayee-ji’s time?”These are the words of Dr Murli Manohar Joshi, one of the Bharatiya Janata Party’s seniormost leaders and a former Union minister of human resource development. Vinod Agnihotri, Consulting Editor of the Hindi daily Amar Ujala, conducted an extensive interview with him, days into the spiralling of Gen Alpha protests, barely after the Gen Z protests cooled slightly.After Narendra Modi assumed power at the Union in 2014, Joshi – a former BJP president – was moved to the party’s newly created ‘Margdarshak Mandal’, effectively distancing him from active politics. In the blunt parlance of political journalism, Joshi had been sidelined.In this interview with Amar Ujala, Joshi raises serious questions about the Modi government’s education policy and its priorities. He has also expressed grave concerns about the government and the educational system regarding the reduction in the education Budget, the closure of government schools, the increasing privatisation of education, paper leaks and widespread corruption. His remarks sharply criticise the policy priorities and the direction of the current system.Instead of perceiving the issue of paper leaks merely as a shortcoming of the examination system, Joshi links it to the growing corruption within society and governance. He remarked that when people witness money and corruption dominating every sphere, they too begin to adopt the wrong path; ultimately, the responsibility lies with the government and the system.When asked about the root cause of paper leaks, Joshi said that a major reason is the absence of a clear direction for the education sector to take in the future.He asserted that it is essential to link education with employment. “Education should be economically productive,” he said. “If education does not yield economic returns, what value does it hold?”Joshi pointed out the current reality where a Master of Arts graduate in Delhi is employed by the municipal corporation, while a PhD holder is found working in a municipal office. “It once caused me great distress to see a sanitation worker who possessed a B.Ed. degree,” he said. “He was working on a contractual basis earning a salary of Rs 25,000–30,000. So, where is this situation heading?”He observed that although new colleges are being established, there is no consideration for employment opportunities available for graduating youth. “A government job is the only secure job, ensuring lifelong security,” he opined.Citing a personal example, Joshi said, “When I was a student, the physics course had the highest number of admissions. A decade later, people started flocking to electronics courses, and fifteen years thereafter, they began opting for electronic engineering.”Also read: India’s Exam Fraud Bubble: 148 Cases, One Conviction in 11 YearsHe added, “It is essential to consider your strategy. If people struggle to find employment, what options do they have? They will naturally gravitate towards the most accessible opportunities.”Connecting paper leaks and corruption within the education system to the rise of corruption, Joshi remarked that when the system itself facilitates unethical practices, it is difficult to expect honesty from students.“In such circumstances, fraud becomes inevitable,” he said. “People take note of things. They conclude that if someone can secure a contract by paying a bribe, then perhaps they too must resort to similar tactics to have their applications approved. And when a student witnesses that his teacher secured the position through bribery, they may think, ‘Why shouldn’t I also succeed through similar methods?’”Joshi said, “When allegations are levelled against ministers and individuals in high positions, as well as against members of the judiciary… the individual comes to the conclusion that this is the correct path to follow. You forged this path yourself, and now you ask why this is happening?”He added, “So, we are the ones who carved this path. The blame does not rest with these children. It is we who are to blame.”Reflecting on his own term in office compared to the current situation, Joshi said, “I ask this with utmost humility – why didn’t paper leaks occur during Vajpayee-ji’s time?” He noted that the emphasis at the time was on foundational principles. “Now, scams are taking place in banks, so scams will inevitably occur in education as well,” he said. “Scams are happening in business; the government itself is embroiled in scams. Why, then, do you blame these poor students? They are bound to follow suit.”Linking the issue to the broader social framework, Joshi said, “One has to look at the fundamentals – especially at the societal structure that has been created, which is built entirely around material gain.”“You have set the societal objective that individuals must acquire money and that everyone should strive for wealth, even if it means picking someone else’s pocket.”‘Is it an exam or war?’In response to questions on the students’ demonstration against paper leaks at Jantar Mantar and the government’s preparations to deal with the issue, Joshi attributed the situation to [over] centralisation. He remarked that it is generally assumed that every issue has a single solution.Also read: Education Has Not Failed Indian Children Everywhere – Why?He said that the government’s is focused on finding out how to draft leak-proof exam papers, how to arrange for their secure printing, how to deploy an entire army for safeguarding them, how to utilise airplanes. This made Joshi chuckle, “It is unbelievable. It is as though it’s not an exam, but war has broken out!”Education Budget: ‘What is the priority?’Joshi also raised questions regarding the government’s education Budget and its priorities. Asked whether the funding allocation to education in the general Budget was low because education is not among the priorities of the government, he said it was not.“No,” Joshi said. “Looking at the Budget allocations during previous years, it is clear that the allocations for education, primary education and healthcare are decreasing, while expenditure on roads and road transport has increased. He said:“How many roads should be built, what type of roads ought to be built, what are the requirements of the country? These factors can and should be evaluated. However, it is also essential to consider the cost of construction and whose needs should take precedence.”According to Joshi, it is essential to first determine the country’s priorities in any development policy. “If the priority is industrialisation, particularly private-sector industrialisation, then all efforts will align with that goal. If the priority is the overall development of the country, then the education [budget] will be directed towards that aim,” he said.Citing the relationship between infrastructure and education, he said that development cannot be considered complete merely by building roads. “You have constructed the road, but where will you find engineers? You need to build engineering colleges for that. If you are building a road, where will the machines come from? If you are importing them from abroad, what’s the use?”Why was the education policy drafted under Rajiv Gandhi not changed?Regarding the new education policy (NEP 2020), Joshi said that initial efforts to frame it were made during the government led by Atal Bihari Vajpayee. At that time, the issue of objectionable content related to various communities and castes in textbooks had come to light, and the matter had even been brought before the Supreme Court. Subsequently, the government asked him to formulate a new education policy.Joshi recounted that he thoroughly studied the education policy of the time and found that there was no need to devise a new policy.“I reviewed the old education policy and I said that there was no need [to change it]. Everything we want to achieve can be accomplished through this,” he said. He said it was not appropriate to change the old education policy merely because it was drafted during the tenure of Rajiv Gandhi.He said that his government made necessary modifications based on the old education policy wherever required, it was done.According to Joshi, while drafting an education policy, its aims and objectives must be clear. “The objective should be clear. And it cannot be linked to any one industrial policy, trade policy, international policy or war policy. It should be holistic and encompass all these policies as well as focus on human development.”The former minister also questioned the process of preparing the new education policy. He noted that the chairman of the previous policy, scientist K. Kasturirangan, was an old acquaintance of his. Joshi says that when he asked Kasturirangan what he was doing about the new education policy, he replied, ‘The committee does what it does. I just coordinate whatever comes.’”Joshi said that numerous elements in the new education policy were derived from NITI Aayog. In contrast to the Planning Commission that existed during his tenure. He said, “During our era, there was a Planning Commission. However, it did not interfere in education. Its job was to direct what kind of labour was needed for which tasks.”‘Education should not become a commercial activity’Joshi advocated a uniform school system for equality in education. He stated that, if necessary, the constitution should be amended to ensure that every child studies in the school located in their neighbourhood.“Whether it is a rich person’s child, or a bureaucrat’s; be the child poor or rich, let them study in their locality or in the village. Equal education should be imparted right from the beginning.”He stated that this system ought to be implemented at least until secondary education. “This was my vision, and I still uphold the belief that without such education in the nation and without free access to education at this level, we will continue to lag significantly in education,” he said.Also read: When Profit Trumps Purpose: The Commodification of Indian Education and Loss of Moral AccountabilityHe expressed concerns on the growing commercialisation of education, emphasising that education should not be viewed as a commercial enterprise and its objective should not be to earn money.“Individuals must turn to the education sector as it is essential for the country. There is potential for profit as well. However, there should be regulations to ensure that the revenue generated from education is reinvested into the education,” he said.Joshi criticised the notion of treating healthcare as a profit-making venture as well. “It is unacceptable to profit from medicine and education, exploiting people’s need for education and health. Such practices never existed in our country.”What is the goal of ‘Viksit Bharat’?Joshi also raised questions regarding the goal of ‘Viksit Bharat’ with reference to the education policy. He said that while setting targets is beneficial, it is essential to clarify what is meant by “development” and “developed”. Even if tribal communities are considered “undeveloped” when you go by modern criteria, how can this perspective be justified from a human point of view?“They protect the environment, live simply, do not lie, do not steal, coexist with nature, are content, and do not chop forests,” he said. “It is important to decide in the education policy what will be the values of life for the society.” He said:“You want to maintain one set of values of life but create a contrary set of economic values. That is a contradiction.”He noted that while the government promotes the “great Vedic tradition” and “Indian knowledge traditions”, it simultaneously allows the establishment of such educational institutions where the cost of education is becoming unaffordable for the common man.“Very well, if you wish to pursue studies, go and arrange for Rs 50 lakh. What does this mean? No person from a poor family can study in such a situation.” He said that expensive education only increases economic and social inequality.Joshi said that its impact is also evident in the social pressure experienced by students in large educational institutions. He asked, “Why are student suicides happening only in big institutions? They are not happening in small schools.”According to him, economic and social disparity exacerbates the situation.Closure of government schoolsJoshi questioned the rationale behind the closure of government schools. He said that the justification given for it is the decline in student enrolment, but nobody asks why the number of children has decreased.“There are fewer children because they complain the teacher does not come. Why would the teacher come? You haven’t made any arrangements.”According to Joshi, instead of shutting down government schools, the government should focus on improving their basic infrastructure. “All the promises about facilities are nothing but noise. Why is nothing happening on the ground?”Joshi also raised the issue of lack of basic facilities and teachers in educational institutions.He said, “You have opened educational institutions [schools] but there are no teachers. What will the students do? You must have recently seen some girls protesting. They were complaining that they don’t even have a physics teacher. Another one was saying that they don’t even have a building and yet another one was complaining that her school doesn’t even have a roof. These are issues that students are bringing up. So where are you headed?”Translated by Naushin Rehman from an article originally published on The Wire Hindi.